Canine Parvovirus

[ashaari]

Hi there,
I have had the misfortune of purchasing an 8 week old standard poodle pup who died of suspected parvo 6 days later. She was vaccinated 2 weeks beforehand, flown to me on a 4 hour flight (saturday), and arrived healthy, happy, if not a bit tired and shell shocked (to be expected!!). She was very healthy the following day (sunday), ate well, toiletting normally, socialising with my other dogs confidently, so nothing seemed wrong at all. The next day, however, she was lethargic, refused to eat and started vomitting clear fluid. She would drink, so I gave her electrolytes in her water bowl, which she happily drank. Her motions through the day were small and soft, proper colour, no bad smell, but by night she'd had a puddle of diarrhea, same fawn colour, no bad smell. Her temperature was 37C. I put it down to stress and just kept her warm and quiet all day. No vomitting or diarrhea through the night or the next day, but still not willing to eat. By 7pm that night (tuesday), though, she started vomitting again and did so a few times through the night. The next morning (wednesday) she had a very suspect motion, dark red, a bit smelly and she was very depressed. I took her to the vet who treated her as if it was parvo. She wasn't dehydrated, so the electrolytes had worked well, but her temp was 36C. She went on a warm drip of Hartmans, got heat pads and antibiotics. By thursday she was still passing nasty diarrhea, classic smell as per parvo, but a little brighter in herself. Vet assumed that she would be well enough to start eating again by Friday. She was much brighter Friday morning and had stopped scouring and all looked good. However by that afternoon she went downhill quickly and was very cold and flat. She received a blood transfusion, but passed away through the night.
I spoke to her breeder who maintains that his vet said that she must have caught parvo from the carry crate at the airport, however she exhibited symptoms within 36 hours of arriving here. All my research and my vets opinion indicate that the incubation period is at least 3 days, and the breeders vet told him that direct contact from sitting in a dirty crate could make her sick within 24 hours. I inspected the crate when I collected her from the airport, incase she'd made a mess in it and I would clean it for them, but found only wet newspaper and didn't notice pools of bloody diarrhea. Breeder maintains that he complained about the state of the crate and he though the newspaper had already been used. Given that it was the first flight of the day, I know that the freight company would have cleaned the crates and set them up for the following day's business, so it wasn't likely to be as he stated.
Of course, he's never had parvo on his property (??) all other pups and dogs healthy, etc, so it couldn't possibly be his fault. He does barrier nurse his pups to a very high degree, bleach, Glen20 spray, changes clothes and shoes, etc EVERY TIME THE PUPPIES ARE HANDLED, FED, CLEANED, so it makes you wonder if he's deliberately protecting them from their own invironment.
I am asking for opinions on the possible transfer from the crate manifesting itself so quickly, or would there be other causes of haemorragic enteritis that can result in this outcome? Was there anything we could have done differently in her treatment that may have made a difference. Of course, my vets were extremely upset to have lost her as their survival rate has always been high, but I feel I must ask anyway. Throughout all of this, her heart appeared to be ok, rate and strength not seeming to be compromised, so that doesn't seem to be a contributing factor. Given the time frame, could she have contracted the disease at the vet when she was vaccinated and the stress of travelling brought it on. Could it be a stress related reaction to her vaccination? I don't know if she had already been weaned, so maternal antibody interference could be a factor.
I'd really like to hear your thoughts as I have paid for a pup who died within a week, plus transport and a large vet bill, all for nothing and a breeder who won't admit responsibility. I doubt that I will have any satisfaction, but at least I can be as informed as possible to know that I am either arguing with correct facts or that he may be right and I have no claim.
Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing from you.

[Daveyo]

Hi ashaari;

I am Daveyo and came across your post here.

Parvo normally has no fever. Second with parvo the dogs get dehydrated very quickly. You mentioned both of these on your post and I conclude it is not parvo but something else.

Third what was the CBC readings of the WBC?? Why did not the VET take a blood sample to run the full test on CBC???? If the WBC was dropped below 4,000 then you have clear Parvo as parvo will attack the bone marrow, and the large intestines as well. The rest of the reading will tell me what is going on with the dog.

The situation did not occur in the crate. It took place at the breeder as the dog was already infected with something possible Distemper?????

If you still have that dog around, please do an autopsy. Find out what killed that dog because the VET apparently was so bad based on your story here the VET couldn't even diagnose the problem correctly.

Distemper gives very smelly poo.

I need more details from you of what the VET did and what tests that VET did. If you can get those records, please feel free to send them to me at my site at caninedistemper dot proboards dot com and when there register yourself in and I will take a look at it.

I am one of the experts so don't feel offended as you'll probably will be needing me to give you the assessment on your dog. I have a medical protocol that cures Parvo very quickly if it is Parvo. In your case I suspect something else but need more information.

My condolences to you and your pet.

Hope to see you there.

Daveyo

[ashaari]

Hi Daveyo,
Thanks for your reply, it was most informative.
My vet did not perform any blood tests as it was obviously haemoragic enteritis, parvo being the most likely cause, and between us, we have over 100 years of veterinary experience (I have been a vet nurse for over 20 years, and the 3 vets have at least 30 years each). I was very confident that the vets were doing everything possible to support a good recovery.
The pup's temp on the Monday when she was vomitting was 37c. I agree, parvo drops the temp, not increases it, but I also kept her wrapped and warm all day, so maybe that interfered with her true temp. She wasn't given a chance to become dehydrated because I treated her quickly and efficiently with elecrolytes and as soon as she started scouring, she was on a drip. Although she refused to eat, she was happy to drink and consumed at least one litre of fluid over the day.
I am not looking, so much, for a diagnosis, as a reasonable explaination of any health problems that would show themselves within a 36 hour period, suggesting that she got sick once she arrived here, rather than brought it with her. That is the whole point, the breeder is maintaining that she caught something outside his control, so is not responsible for it. In my experience, unless she was poisoned, there is nothing that could make her that sick and perish that she would not have already harboured. I am also happy to assume that the breeder was not aware of any health problems, because she did appear to be happy and very healthy. It is very likely that she has been stressed from the flight and change of circumstances, which is very normal for such a young pup, and this has allowed whatever underlying health problem to take over. Rather than just being a bit off colour from the stress, she's gotten extremely sick and died, so it has to be a weakness or prior problem. Also, having his vet maintain that she caught parvo from the crate and then exhibited symptoms within 36 hours is ridiculous, so I wonder if his vet knows what he's talking about! I am attempting to speak directly to his vet to confirm that this would be his opinion.
This pup died a week ago and we did not perform an autopsy, as we didn't feel it was neccessary, and I don't think that it would make any difference. It's not important if it was parvo, distemper, or any other diesease, the point is that she got sick and died so quickly and morally the breeder should be prepared to comphensate me for my losses and costs. Even a pet shop gives a 2 week health guarrentee, shouldn't breeders be expected to do the same? I have been a breeder for many years too, and have always stood behind my babies and offered refunds, support or payment of vet expenses if need be. Shame not all breeders are ethical enough to do the same thing.
Cheers,
Ashaari

[Daveyo]

Hi again

I again read your post here. While it is generally the scope of guarantees that autopsy will tell you everything you need to know which is very important in your case even though you feel it not so.

Yes of course a lawsuit can be made and done to recover your expenses since it falls under that guarantee, but at the same time any lawyer will also tell you that you will need to prove that the dog was sick prior to that trip. This is when the autopsy will come into play. If that autopsy points to the dog being sice prior to the trip the breeder will lose.

In a civil case you need to prove 51% only to the court. If you win you can recover the costs and some emotional damages as well because of what took place. This will also put on notice to breeders to back up what they guarantee as well.

I very much doubt the airlines had anything to do with it. More likely the pup was sick prior to the trip and then when it left and arrived at a new surrounding yes the stress is incredible to the dog, and that alone can trigger the underlying illness into full swing.

Also parvo can be contracted in many ways. Do take a look here on the left side and click on Parvo. It can be anyone of them that can cause Parvo. Also I have to consider the fact of the dogs genetics and immune system response as well. If it was given the vaccine shots while sick that sickness will cancel out the vaccine period. The vaccine will not get a foothold on the immune system. Many VETS seem to forget this and same for the owners as well. Also when you vaccinate you do not under any circumstance give full shots to small animals. A full vaccine shot is meant for a 60 pound dog or more. On small dogs give only 1/2 dose shots at a time and then wait 14 days and then give the next one. Why, because of the lethal potential of Distemper and Parvo being together as a combo shot. In many cases a lot of dogs get what is called Vaccine induced illnesses because the immune system is insulted and it takes a huge hit on a full dose.

The rest is up to you. I suggest the autopsy and get your answers rather than playing the guessing game or doing the blaming game. Have the facts and the proof before you and then you have something to back yourself up and can make a strong accusation. Without it, you will always have the doubt and be on some fishing expedition trip and having a bitter taste in your mouth because you cannot prove it otherwise on a mere accusation alone.

That blood test was crucial by the way. Without that full CBC the VET was guessing. You can be very experience in the field and all it takes is huh wait a minute this dog exhibited all the classic symptoms of that disease only to find out via a CBC or autopsy it was something else resulting a bad mis-diagnosis.

I will never guess and get certain tests done. One is CBC full, the other is the specific test to tell me if the dog has Distemper or not. An Elisia test also can be supportive test as a backup to be certain as well. Then you can proceed to treat the animal.

The problem is animals cannot speak vocally to you, so this makes it very difficult, so one has to have some common sense to find out what is wrong with the dog.

Just wondering if your dog caught the deadly strain of Parvo F. It is in USA. now. It is a new strain and quite deadly. None have survived to this date.

That is why I say get the autopsy done. You need answers and not be wondering if it was this or that.

Daveyo