Canine Distemper

[devastated]

The other night, I noticed one of my puppies of 9 who were 5 weeks old wandering into walls, howling, and aggressively attacking our baby gate. When I went to feed them that night, one went into full blown seizure. The others seemed fine. I rushed the little one to the emergency vet where the vet said he was suffering neurological damage and became paralyzed. We felt no other option but to put this puppy down since he was already so ill and his chances or surviving were slim due to him not having any boosters what so ever yet. I get home, and 3 more puppies were doing it. By the time we got all the puppies to the vet, an additional 4 more were making the weird howling noise and seizing. The vet told me she was 99% sure that all the puppies had contacted distemper and could tell in the puppies who seemed fine, their eyes showed the same signs as the sick ones. I am having the first puppy sent for an autopsy to make sure it was 100% distemper But is this even possible since mama gets her shots regularly? Shouldnt she have passed this immunity to her pups? I'm keeping an eye on mama now, but she's not showing any signs of anything being wrong.

[Daveyo]

Hi I am Daveyo

First what kind of dog do you have???? Secondly did you vaccinate the mother while she was pregnant or after the birth of the pups?? What was the stool condition of those pups??????

Third how often do you vaccinate the mother dog???? What is the age of the mother dog????

Are any of the remaining pups still alive as of this writing or are all of them dead???

What you had was a rapid onset of ODE. I am glad your doing the autopsy. I would very much appreciate it if you can provide me the details of the findings from that autopsy.

I have a suspicion of knowing the source and of the cause, but if you can be so kind enough to answer the above questions as accurately as possible I'd appreciate it.

After I get those answers and the autopsy results, then I can explain everything to you so it does not happen again. Sound good.

My condolences to you and of the horror you must have went thru the past 3 days.

I would like very much for you to also register to my site. It contains a wealth of the latest information and pictures of all about Distemper and of course Fading Puppy Syndrome as well as the other diseases. Most people don't understand nor recognize that disease (Fading Puppy) as well. You can find my site at [moderator note: website address has been removed] and you can either write here or at my site which I also watch and respond as well. If you have any questions feel free to ask.



Daveyo

[devastated]

They were german shepherd puppies. She was due for her shots while she was pregnant but the vet advised waiting until after she gave birth to get the shots. The puppies were born March 15, and she received her shots April 10. She's on a 3 year distemper shot which she got last year, but April 10th, she got Bordatella, corona virus, leptospirosis, giardia, and lyme disease shots. It was a couple days after mama got her shots that we started giving the babies soggy dry puppy food, but mama was still feeding for about a week afterwards also. The stool of the puppies were sometimes normal, and somtimes diarrhea. It was hard to tell who's was who's. I thought it was just from the transition of eating dog food from mother's milk. The mama is on pet insurance and gets her shots regularly. The vets call when the shots are due and she goes for regular check ups. When i took all the puppies up there, there were a few that seemed fine, however the vet said when she looked at their pupils, she could tell they were all infected. With her advice, we euthanized them all because she said the ones that arent suffering yet WILL suffer, and we could stop it before it happened. I'm very concerned about the mama now though. She's seems fine. She's doing a lot of sleeping, but I'm thinking maybe she's just grieving. I called her normal vet, and he told me since she has all of her shots, not to worry about it but if anything seems out of the ordinary to bring her in.

[devastated]

What is ODE?

[Daveyo]

Ok thank you for the information. Autopsy results in yet???

As for your situation, the vet or you made one bad mistake. Never give shots when the mother dog is going into heat or is pregnant or is weaning her pups. (Meaning after birth when she is milking. You only do such vaccination shots after you can confirm that she has rejected anymore weaning milk which usually takes place sometime between late week 7 to about week 9 since the birth of the pups. Even then wait at least 2 more weeks because the mother may on occassion let them drink for brief periods.

That is why the pups all died.

Also consider yourself lucky. Having 9 pups would have been a major burden especially the feeding and the cleaning as well. All German Shep dogs do have many health problems and they have short lifespans. Last of all they are vulnerable to vaccine shots as well.

Whenever you do such shots, make absolutely sure that the vet keeps PARVO AND DISTEMPER completely apart and not at the same time. When you give the basic Distemper with the rest of the other shots, you wait 14 days until that shot starts to peak up to be effective. Then on the third week you can give the Parvo shot all by itself, and I highly recommend the killed version rather than the modified live.

So now you know what took place. I suspected it all along but wanted to wait until I got your more detailed response.

If you want to prevent future pregnancies you can have the fallopian tubes of the female all tied up and also snipped off and sealed. You can leave the ovaries and uterus intact. Will not harm the dog at all and it is a rather easy procedure. I prefer to do that than remove the testicles of the males. I prefer to keep organs together and this procedure is safe and easiest to do and the least painful of all.

On the males one can do the same thing but it is a little harder but can be done in preventing sperm to be expelled and the testicles can remain intact.

Owners choice here.

Most of the time when humans have babies, usually it is just one. On animals they give a batch of like 3 or more at a time and these pregnancies can happen twice a year hence a rapid growth and population of dogs. So it is almost essential to control such population explosion by doing some birth control on these animals. Just getting a litter can also put a tremendous financial strain on the budget. So it is up to us to control this ourselves.

In your case, your dog will begin to reset the her clock 6 months from now. She might go into heat or not. Odds are 50-50. So you got between now being April to at least September to make this decision. If she gets pregnant again expect another litter of 7-9 dogs by December.

You can cage the female for about 10 days during heat stage. Not a problem. The only thing is you might have to deal with the male howling and trying to get to the female in heat. Try to keep them way apart and out of sight during this time. Ok. After day 12 it is considered pretty safe to release the female. Most of the heat stage should be finished. Heats generally last on average 10 to 14 days.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Daveyo

[devastated]

I wont have autopsy results in until Monday or Tuesday. The emergency vet was very concerned that my normal vet even gave mama her shots while still milking, however the emergency vet was only concerned if she got her distemper shot in that time which mama did not. So even though she didnt get her distemper shot during this time, is it possible that these other shots did this to these poor puppies? And also they didnt get sick until a week and a half later. Also, you stated they had a rapid onset of ODE.. what is ODE?

[Daveyo]

ODE is Old Dog Encephalitis. It encompasses a wide range of symptoms and in some cases it is very rapid such as a vaccine shot.

To make the explanation simple for you here is the best way for you to understand.

Under normal situations when dogs catch Distemper the disease begins with high fever spikes usually to 106 deg for a few days. The dogs will appear sick and not eat much or drink much. After this period then they eat again and drink again. In the meantime their stools and or nostrils or eyes begin to show signs of being sick. Also the lungs begin to show labor breathing. They also begin to withdraw and stay away from people etc. They also will show signs of pads getting hardened like to a wood state. Finally when the disease reaches its full course they begin to have a chewing in the air syndrome of which seizures begin to follow like 12 hours later. At this point the disease will kill off the animal within 2 days. This lasts from time of infection to about 30-35 days normal initial infection route.

In your case it was rapid caused by the vaccines particularly DISTEMPER As you can see how fast your animal died and it went the gamut very quickly. It was an accelerated version and it went wild inside the dog of which its immune system lost any control to fend off the disease. PARVO opens up the blood brain barrier thus exposing the spinal and brain fluid to outside diseases. It takes about 7-10 days before this barrier will close up again.

Again a lot depends on the genetics of the dog too as well. Some are good and strong and others very weak.

One thing I forgot to mention previously is do get a blood test done on dogs also every 3 years. Most important to spot any problems that may be ongoing to the animal without your knowledge. Most particularly check the WBC count>(White Blood Cells) . That one tells a lot on the strength of the animals immune system. If low either some illness is ongoing and if not then you use Nupogen which brings it back up. Not much is needed since it is very powerful. 0.1cc can shoot the WBC up very high. The higher the WBC the better the dog is against diseases. A good WBC will range like 15.0 to 17.5. Excellent for an animal.

ODE primarly is given because of what it encompasses. Paralysis, Blindness, Seizures, Chorea etc.

The emergency vet was partially correct never give vaccines to a female while its weaning pups.

No need to worry if the female animal was late for vaccinations. Remember it is good for up to 3 years from the last known prior shot.

Example my dog Tiger got pregnant and had pups in January. She was due her shots in February. I only just gave them to her now last week only 1/2 dose and the next last 1/2 dose is next week. She is doing just fine and so is the pups. Her next shots will not be due for 3 years.

Now she had her shots last year Feb 2007. But because she got pregnant I not worry knowing it was good. I just gave her the shots now to ensure that her antibodies are up to snuff otherwise I would not even bother giving the shots. The other thing is I am located at a very hot spot of where many dogs are sick and have a lot of Distemper going around. Yes I am in Thailand and will be returning to USA in about 2 years. So giving her the shots and because of the high hot spot here I prefer her to be up to snuff. That is why I keep a supply of NDV here with me just in case. You never know.

So I hope this answers your question. Nice pic of your pup but hard for me to tell by looking at it. Too far away for me to examine the pic.

By the way how did you get it uploaded here. Curious and I really would like to know how you did it.

Daveyo

[devastated]

See that's just it. The shots she was given while she was still milking were only canine bordatella, corona virus, leptospirosis, giardia, and lyme disease. She didnt get the distemper shot this time.. which is why I'm confused how the pups got it. Mama got her distemper shot back in 2007 so she's not due till 2010. So if she didnt get the distemper shot, what springed distemper? Or do you know another disease with these symptoms? And can any of those other shots cause distemper? I should have the autopsy results early next week and I'll let you know what they say it is.

[Daveyo]

Hi,

Amid your confusion, somebody is not telling you straight. Did you actually see the vaccine vial that was used on your dogs?????

Corona virus always have Parvo in it. Corona is the killed version and Parvo is the live version

The rest Lepto, Adeno, have Distemper in it.

You do not need to vaccinate giardia unless you in the area specifically needing it.

Same for lyme disease but this and giardia has nothing to do with distemper at all. These shots are separate.

Bordettla usually by itself.

If you can get a picture of the vaccine tag please upload it here. I want to see what that VET gave your pups. On the vaccine vial one can peel off a part of the tag and this usually goes in the small medical book pertaining to your dog of which the VET has to sign and indicate the dates when given and when due again. If you do it yourself you have to sign the same and certify it.

As of me I do my own vaccinating rather than taking the dogs to the VET. No need since I can do it myself. Easy.

Also I too eagerly await the autopsy results.

Still want to know how you uploaded your picture here. Tried myself without any luck.

Daveyo.

Here is a Descriptive informational for you.

Sunday, 27 April, 2008

IMMUNIZATION



Many canine diseases can now be prevented through
vaccination. A vaccination schedule prepared by your
veterinarian can thus greatly contribute to good health
and a longer life span for your dog. Below are the most
important diseases for which vaccines are currently
available:



Canine Distemper > is a widespread, often fatal until now
that such can be stopped both in the body and in the
central nervous system if caught early enough and the
cure is within 24 hours from such NDV injection depending
on the genetics and the virus strain on the animal. All
dogs should be vaccinated against Distemper starting
with Distemper-measles vaccination at 7 to 9 weeks
most preferred at the later stages of weaning. Do not
compromise this most important vaccination shot
protocol. Distemper and Parvo vaccines must always
be kept separated and never given at the same time
and be spreaded apart minimum of 21 days and such
shots be given at 1/2 dose per injection. Killed virus of
Distemper and killed virus of Parvo is most preferred for
the safety of the animal if available. Canine Distemper
attacks the Brain and the Central Nervous system of
all animals if infected. Canine Distemper is always
accompanied by High Fever of 102.5 to 106.5 and is
always accompanied with Pneumonia which basically
distinguishes this apart from other diseases that mimic
Canine Distemper.


Canine Adenovirus Type-1 and Type-2 cause infectious
hepatitis and respiratory infections, respectively. Hepatitis
caused by adenovirus Type-1 may cause severe kidney
damage or death. Adenovirus Type-2 is an important
factor in Kennel Cough, and again can be easily
misdiagnosed with Kennel Cough.


Canine Bordetella (B. Bronchiseptica) may contribute
to Kennel Cough. This bacterial infection can occur alone
or in combination with Distemper, Adenovirus Type-2
infection, Parainfluenza, and other Respiratory problems.
This disease mimics Canine Distemper but without the
other secondary characteristics of Distemper and has
very low fever and never is with pneumonia. Can easily
be misdiagnosed.


Canine Leptospirosis is a bacterial infection which may
lead to permanent kidney damage. The Disease is easily
spread to other pets and to HUMANS.


Canine Parainfluenza is another cause of Kennel Cough.
Although Parainfluenza is often a mild respiratory infection
in otherwise healthy dogs, it can be SEVERE IN PUPPIES
or DEBILITATED DOGS. This disease mimics Canine
Distemper but without the other secondary characteristics
of Distemper and has no fever or pneumonia. Can easily
be mis-diagnosed.


Canine Parvovirus infection is a disease of widespread
distribution which may cause severe dehydrating
diarrhea in dogs of varying ages. Parvovirus infection
is ESPECIALLY DANGEROUS FOR PUPPIES.
Make sure you give KILLED Parvo Vaccine to the puppies most
importantly and DO NOT COMPROMISE this shot as well.
Also DO NOT GIVE PARVO COMBINED WITH DISTEMPER
in any dogs. Parvo itself opens up the blood brain barrier and
it is opened for about 10 days before it closes up thus such
will expose the animals to diseases especially if Distemper
is given at the same time. Give Parvo vaccine of 1/2 dose every
21 days spread apart all by itself. Do not mix with other
vaccines. Canine Parvo attacks the small intestines of the
animal and always attacks the Bone Marrow of the animal.

Canine Parvovirus Strain F is extremely very Deadly to animals.
Currently no known cure is availabe to date, and this strain will
kill the animal in less than 8-10 hours from time of onset of
infection. This disease attacks the large intestines of the
animal. Owner has about 1 hour to give emergency treatment
from onset of symptoms, very rapid dehydration after 1 hour,
and animal must be given high doses of I.V. and antibiotics.
Survival rate is less than 2%.


Rabies one of the world's most publicized and feared diseases,
is almost always fatal. Some animals can survive this disease
if given Rabies previously and such is current up to date with a
special treatment. Otherwise there is NO KNOWN CURE if such
animal is infected. Rabies virus attacks the BRAIN and the
entire nervous system and is TRANSMITTED TO HUMANS
chiefly through the bite of an infected animal.


Canine Coronavirus infection is a higly contagious intestinal
disease causing vomiting and diarrhea in Dogs of all ages.
Especially in young puppies, dehydration from Coronavirus
infection can be life-threatening.


Lyme Disease is a transmittal disease from animal to HUMANS.
Can be treated with antibiotics, and same for the animal. Very
little is known at this time of Lyme Disease and research is
still ongoing. Animals can contract this disease from Ticks.